Episode 22: Empowering Change: From Civil Engineer to Successful Entrepreneur with Jen Harkleroad

Ever felt stuck in your career, craving for a change but not sure where to start? My recent sit-down with the charismatic Jen Harkleroad might be the inspirational nudge you need! Once a civil engineer, Jen has now transformed into a successful entrepreneur, and she's on a mission - to pave the way for more women engineers to make their way to decision-making tables. With anecdotes from her fascinating journey, she elaborates on the concept of a portfolio career - a modern, liberating approach that frees you from the clutches of a single source of income.

Imagine having a manager who truly cares about your dreams and ambitions! In our second segment, Jen sheds light on the power of caring leadership. Sharing her experiences, she emphasizes the role of empathetic managers in fostering confidence within their teams. She also offers valuable insight on maintaining personability while being a manager, incorporating lessons from her weekly newsletter, strategy sessions, and group program. 

Navigating the world of remote and in-person work isn't always easy! How about a sneak peek into the pros and cons of hybrid work arrangements? Join Jen as she discusses her experiences, the importance of balancing in-person and remote work, and the critical skill of handling disagreements without damaging relationships. She believes that as we mature, our confidence in our opinions grows, assisting us in today's hybrid work environment. Finally, to add a cherry on the top, we reveal more about Jen's individual and group program offerings, her thoughts on self-belief, personal growth, and the art of finding fun amidst our busy lives.

Follow me on IG: @kathy_mead_fronheiser

Check out my website: www.kathymeadfronheiser.com

Transcript

Speaker 1: 1:15

Hey guys, this is Kathy and welcome to the fun over 40 podcast. I'm super excited to have my friend, jen Harkle Road here with us today. We went over pronunciation before I hit record, so anyway, I've been really excited lately to have more interviews. Yes, I'm still doing some podcasts where I just, you know, have a soliloquy about whatever the topic is, but it's really fun to have interviews with other women doing really interesting different things. So I'm going to let Jen talk a little bit about herself and what she does and about her business and whatever else she wants to share. So take it away, jen. Thank you.

Speaker 2: 1:56

Yes, yes. So I am like the cliff note version of who I am, as I'm an 80 brat. I'm the oldest of five kids, I went to school to be a civil engineer and practice civil engineering for 22 years.

Speaker 2: 2:13

I also have a photography business and a network marketing business.

Speaker 2: 2:19

So I have a lot going on and in January of this year I made a decision to step out of the corporate world because of some family issues that just needed more of my presence at home and it's given me an opportunity to lean into some of these other side businesses that I've had and give me some space to really think about what's next.

Speaker 2: 2:46

So what's next is kind of a work in progress, to be fully honest, but I'm kind of also embracing kind of some of that experimentation process because I think for a while I've just been kind of like looking for what's next in my career. And I'm 23 years into my career and you're like, what do I want to do for the next 20 years before I retire? And I just felt a really big pull towards the people leadership side of the business versus the engineering world, versus doing the technical work anymore, and I think that I also have a lot of strengths in that area of just connecting dots very quickly, very empathetic, a lot of people skills and maybe that's for moving around a lot as a kid Probably so and having to make friends and read the room right.

Speaker 1: 3:41

Read the room, Read situations.

Speaker 2: 3:43

Yes, reading the room, and so I think, after kind of connecting all of the information from kind of all of those three jobs, I guess career paths they call it like a portfolio career. Now I like that. Yeah, it's like kind of building so you you're never fully dependent on any one source of income, right? Because I have been laid off before and that is like the worst ever I know you don't have a plan B.

Speaker 1: 4:13

Yes.

Speaker 2: 4:14

So at least having something to lean into. Yes, and I think the first time was different than the first time, which was like 10 years ago, yeah, so, yeah. So what I like want to do is I want to help female engineers who aspire to be like C-suite positions, help them get to the decision making table, really leveraging some of those softer skills that we all know are really the hardest ones to learn, using a lot of my lived experience. I teach really well from my lived experience and I, just after 22 years, I really think that that's where I want to pour into, to kind of see, see if we can make a little dent on, like the pay equity and the gender pay gap. So that's kind of like probably my mission in life. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1: 5:05

I love that. I love how niche it is, because I actually didn't realize that you I thought you were working with female engineers. I got that part, but I thought you were working with them to help them start their own business of some kind.

Speaker 2: 5:20

No, I actually that's a good differentiating point Like I really want to help women who feel like almost like they're entrepreneurs. They have that entrepreneurial spirit of wanting the business to grow, wanting to lead the business and be part of the decisions, but they also don't want to take the risk to start their own business and maybe, if they do it, something on the side where they have this really passionate side something.

Speaker 2: 5:47

But like kind of helping them find the balance of that as well. But really what I want to help is to refine those skills so when the opportunity comes, and also so they can use their voice to advocate for what is available. What do they need? You know, some of the things I personally wasn't taught throughout my career about just making sure people could see what I was doing, and I think that's a huge piece in positioning yourself in just to be in the room for the conversation. And if we can kind of just focus on the next generation of women, then I'm hoping it's my goal that, like they'll have a little bit easier, and I have two daughters, so I'm like, yeah, super passionate in that way.

Speaker 1: 6:32

You're bought in for sure? Yeah, definitely, well, and I think that that could be. I'm not an engineer and I don't play one on TV, but I feel like that could be true with any job position, for a female or male even. But the whole, like what you said about making sure your people see what you're doing, because I've always been a very like heads down blinders on. I don't do office politics.

Speaker 1: 6:59

Well, right, you know, and I assume that somebody is going to see that I'm doing a good job and therefore. But as you know, and I have mentioned on this podcast I went through a layoff I think you know that in June, in mid June yes, I thought we had talked after that. So in part of me was like, and I was the only person on my team that was laid off and not that I think it's because I did anything wrong, it was a company wide thing but it does make you think like, oh, should I have been like tooting my own horn Because I certainly was not Right and I think that that's a misconception that a lot of women, especially like in their 40s this is in life or kind of have that if we work hard, we'll be successful mindset and people will notice what we're doing Right.

Speaker 2: 7:46

But I think the reality is that's not true and it's not that people are doing it in a malicious way at all. It's that most people are really concerned about themselves and, like you know what I mean they're not looking to necessarily pull people up and that's kind of one of those soft skills that be a really good leader is to be able to identify the people that you have, what their strengths are and making sure the right people are seeing their successes.

Speaker 2: 8:15

And that's kind of how I think have always led my teams, like as an engineer and a manager. But so it's kind of taking all these pieces I've learned from just my life right, yeah, experiences and kind of leveraging those to help women who have been in my shoes or I was in their shoes, I guess, for 22 years, and so a lot has changed and I think corporate America in general is shifting with just different generations, and I don't have to get too much into all of that, but I think it's a matter of just being open and seeing that there's a shift happening and how can we leverage that to like really diversify the people who sit at those decision-making tables?

Speaker 1: 9:08

Yeah, I think it's interesting because and again, I think other people besides engineers would say this like when you're in school, you're taught how to be an engineer, You're not taught how to be a leader or a manager or even get a raise, Like even, or a promotion, I should say not a raise. I mean a raise is good too, but I'm in a promotion, like promote into a managerial role Like none of that. Those are probably more those soft deals yeah, I know, and then I that's not taught.

Speaker 2: 9:36

No, it's not at all, and I think that I got lucky to like two years into my career I had a manager who had a female colleague in a different city say that commercial real estate women crew was a really good organization and they're heavily focused on networking. So two years in is like the brainest person, but I'm an outgoing person, so they're like we'll see, send Jen, and it turned out to be like one of the best things I ever did in my career because it put me in a circle of women who were willing to help me and pull me along and once you kind of see that you never not want that for yourself.

Speaker 1: 10:17

Or for others right.

Speaker 2: 10:18

Like I imagine, then when?

Speaker 1: 10:20

you get to that point and you can help someone, coming up right Like now you're in a man. Let's just say you know you're in a managerial role and then you help someone. What a great feeling.

Speaker 2: 10:31

I would say if you're a good manager, right, Like you're a good manager.

Speaker 1: 10:35

The best managers I've had, I will say, are managers that have cared about what. Where do you want to go, kathy? What are your dreams Like? What do you want to do in five years? So not just like, hey, we need this done for our team, do this now kind of thing, but actually cared about you know where, because that's going to keep me with that team or with that company or with that department, because I feel like that people care about me right and care about my future or whatever.

Speaker 1: 11:04

Yeah, or my growth, I should say.

Speaker 2: 11:07

For sure, and I mean I think that that is one of the biggest things that if we could teach managers, we could teach whoever is hiring people. It's like what that onboarding experience is like what they feel on the day to day, week to week, month to month, matters, because you are spending time investing in training them and you want to retain them, and that is just a much more dynamic conversation than it was 20 years ago, and I think it's a skill set that no one should be like I don't know, embarrassed if they don't have. I think it's a matter of like. Not everyone was taught it, but now that we know, I feel like there's like once you know better. I think that's kind of who I am Like. If I've seen something good, I like can't unsee the good parts, yeah Right.

Speaker 1: 11:57

And I want to like.

Speaker 2: 11:58

Build like the magical land. It's perfect.

Speaker 1: 12:02

I think that's awesome. I'll definitely. I might have to reach out to you privately, jen, because there are some positions I'm interviewing for. That would be people manager positions, and I've done some of that, but I would love to, and so that on one hand, scares me right, but on the other hand, excites me.

Speaker 1: 12:20

But I want to make sure I'm good right, like I want to be that manager Like that, and it's not so much about being everyone's friend, right, I think that's the challenge, yeah, I think to me that's the challenge at least, because I'm like you, like I'm personable and I like getting to know people and whether I'm their quote manager or I don't know, you know, I don't think I'm like better than anybody else or anything like that. So I think that's a tough skill to be. It really is. I think it's hard.

Speaker 2: 12:47

Yeah, I actually. I have a weekly newsletter. I just started, so issue eight was last Friday, but that's exactly what it was about. It was awesome. Idea of being too nice is really negative perception, okay. But I really had someone kind of flip that script for me and she said, well, you're not too nice, you just want everyone to have a voice. And so it really kind of switched it around for me of like how empowering it is and sometimes it's hard to see your progress throughout your career until someone like makes this statement that says, oh yeah, when I was two years out of school I didn't have these skills. I learned these skills through year by year, team by team. You know what I mean Changing jobs, having to negotiate things, and part of it is through experience, but some of it I think there's more women now are age that can leverage their experience to help women behind us experience less.

Speaker 2: 13:50

Yeah, right, so that they can right If we, collectively, can accelerate our progress. I feel like that's where we're going. We're going to see numbers change and see things shift, yeah yeah. So I have I'm working on a few offers, so I'm right now I do have like a one-on-one strategy session. Okay, has a framework of how do you, what are your kind of four pillars and what's that foundation of that and how you want to design your career. Okay, so that's something you and I can definitely talk about yeah, I'm going to say that sounds amazing.

Speaker 2: 14:27

And then I am in the process of launching like a very it's going to be in this fall, so it's in a few weeks of a small like a 10%, eight to 10 people group program.

Speaker 1: 14:38

Okay.

Speaker 2: 14:38

That's going to be really specialized on kind of bringing some of the feminine side of how to plan to the very masculine engineering like brain side of how to really set use Q4, use right now to set yourself up for success in 2024. So that's exciting, yeah. So I have and I and I'm doing some photography stuff. So I'm still doing a lot of that and I think I am going to kind of toying around with the idea of doing some sort of posing workshop and then offering like almost like a set of branding photos.

Speaker 2: 15:15

But like after you've kind of learned and feel a little more confident in your body. Cause that's one of the hardest things. Some of the most confident people I know. I get really uncomfortable behind the camera and if you run into the camera, you mean, cause that would be me.

Speaker 1: 15:32

Yeah Well, I was like I think I know where she's going and then you just said but I knew what you meant and that's me, like I feel very confident. On stage I will speak to a room of hundreds of people. I teach group exercise, like you know what I'm saying, like all that stuff, but oh, it is. Oh, I mean, it is physically painful to have my picture made and I hate that. I do it anyway because I will say my mother, as long as I've known her, for 47 years almost has always been no, don't take my picture. No, don't take my picture. Oh, my gosh, don't take my picture. And it you know, one of these days she's not going to be around for us to take her picture and we're going to want her picture.

Speaker 1: 16:12

Do you know what I'm saying? Like, so I think I think of that kind of stuff. Not that I don't have kids, but still I have a family. I have a sister and nieces and nephews and people that would want to have my picture. So I just but you know what I'm saying? Like, yes, I think it's almost like a self. You have to think of others, you know, you have to think of others and just smile and, do you know? Be in your cute outfit, work with our friend Jenny's up on a great outfit, and that's what I did.

Speaker 1: 16:36

Actually, some of my favorite pictures were from one of our mastermind retreats last year and she helped me with my and she was actually there as well, but she helped me with my outfit and she was there and those pictures turned out great and I use them all the time. I'm going to need some new ones, but it's. But it took a lot of like pumping me up. I mean, I'm not even kidding and I feel like I'm a very confident person otherwise, but just something about it. So I actually think that is a great idea.

Speaker 1: 17:06

Like you work on the confidence piece first, yeah, and then you, you know, and then, like some posing, maybe bring someone like Jenny in as far as, like you know, like the what to wear because that was a big part of it, as I felt good and what I had on and and then do the pictures and then they can see them and all that kind of stuff. Like I think that's a great idea because, yeah, I mean it goes we're old enough to know it goes hand in hand, right, that confidence. You bring that to the picture, you know. So what kind of photography do you normally do, or are you just kind of all over the place or do you? I have done a lot in, yeah, in years.

Speaker 1: 17:42

Most photographers have right yeah.

Speaker 2: 17:45

I don't do weddings at all, so I did weddings for a while and just with my daughter schedules right now they're both middle schoolers. It's too much to commit a year ahead of time. Yeah, yeah I. What I'm really finding is I love a lot of the branding, just like photos or photos that people need for like an award submission or something that's like really being leveraged to help their business grow in some way, whether it's for content or website photos or things like that. Yeah, yeah, but connect, because we kind of like what I found is that I could connect to them on the strategy side of it but we just can get so many images in such a short amount of time because I kind of pulled the project manager side of me in to kind of make it as efficient as possible.

Speaker 1: 18:30

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 18:30

So yeah. So I think branding is really where I'm kind of leaning towards. I still do a lot of fall family minis and like locally, but family photography is something that I love, but I'm just kind of getting pulled towards branding right now because it kind of falls in line with what I'm trying to help women as well. So, yeah, I can keep pulling it into that piece of the business too.

Speaker 1: 18:57

Yeah, for sure. Okay, that's very cool. I did not know about your photography, so that's super interesting, yeah, okay. So one of the questions that I asked some people is, like, what has been a challenge that you struggled with in your, either in your business or maybe previously in your career? I feel like your, your business, is trying to solve a challenge, right, so you could kind of go with that, but anyway, um, and then, like you know, how did you overcome it?

Speaker 2: 19:23

Yeah, I think that's a good point is kind of where my business is solving a challenge. I think what I saw was, unless you're really proactive and asking for the trainings and being very vocal, you could just continue to ease by right, like, just continue to go by. And that's not just gender, that's male, female and you know so, but it is just more. I mean, the numbers say it all. I don't have any off the top of my head. Yeah, that's okay.

Speaker 2: 19:52

Women's, like girls, stop raising their hand in third grade, and so that's already how soon you start Doubting your voice, and so it's really Trying to kind of unlearn some of that script that you already have, right, yeah, and part of that was for me was I did group coaching. I, you know I do a lot of therapy, yeah, and you know I had my own coach. Try to coach is trained to help me work through different things so that I could advocate for myself. So, like, when I look back, I've taken a lot of leadership training.

Speaker 2: 20:26

I really grabbed the verdict gravitated towards women in leadership training, sure, but one thing I've started to realize is I started listening to a lot of more male focused or very like Hardcore, neurotypical I guess like, yeah, just very masculine energy of like how to get through things and how to be productive, and what I realized is there's just such a gap between the way different people operate that, yes, it's like you really have to kind of find what works for you. Yes, but Having someone hold your hand along the way is a lot easier than the trial and error that, yeah, you know like okay, well, that didn't work out Right. Right, you know you have to repair that calm Confirmation, that didn't go well, but and so then I think One of the biggest pieces and it feels so blue, but it's like it's- like I really started to.

Speaker 2: 21:23

I got to a point where I was really focusing on how much I loved myself, and then that translated into how much self-belief I had in my capabilities, yeah, and so like kind of even in my career like this is how you can expand your visibility is like one of the things we talk about, but the foundation is still self-belief. Yeah, how much do you believe in yourself? I think John Maxwell calls it your leadership lid, but it's the same as potential or whatever it's like, only if it's here. You can't go any higher than here. So what you're having to do is continue to self-improve, gotcha, so that you can keep growing, and sometimes that means changing the circle of people you're with, sometimes Changing a job environment. That doesn't work for you, right, right, but it usually does mean some sort of change and that's why a lot of people are persistent. So, yes, I think that's, but I will say a lot, a lot of falling down.

Speaker 1: 22:22

Yes, yes, well, that's how we learn, right you know. Yeah, no, I think that's that's great, because it made me think of where you say people are resistant. It's like that devil you know versus the devil you don't know. Right, like I know, even though I'm underpaid in this job and nobody listens to you know, I've been here 10 years and nobody listens to me and I haven't gotten a promotion or a raise or anything, but at least I I know it right like it's because I could go out here and get this better-paying job.

Speaker 1: 22:52

But it could be. It could be even more miserable, I don't know.

Speaker 2: 22:55

In that yeah, like we don't know and there's a balance between. The grass isn't always greener on the other side, right, and especially if some of that work has to do with you, yeah, so, changing jobs, your environment, if some of the work really is inner work, yeah, you know, overcoming some of these things or the chow like it's really frustrating, trying to find your voice and you feel, yes, you know, anger kind of sometimes when you're like why can't I just get this out?

Speaker 2: 23:23

right and as you start to learn that you're kind of like, well, I Can't do, I don't feel safe doing this here, so it's worth the risk, right, right, right, but it familiarity, people will stay. I mean, I'm in the same way, like, yeah, it's your natural instinct, so you have to try really hard to like go against that, but um, yeah, yeah, so I think it was like really kind of once I was identified that as oh, I'm really doubting my capabilities.

Speaker 2: 23:58

That's where I tried to really kind of was like okay, well, what are my strengths? And how do I say like these are my strengths, with confidence, and yeah, then Start back words engineering, like what my value that I can bring to the world.

Speaker 1: 24:11

Yeah, yeah, no, that's a great point. I love it. Okay, okay. So this is another question that I like to ask people what do you do to have fun?

Speaker 2: 24:27

Weirdly enough, I like, even like photography side. Once a year, you know, minus COVID and some other things, yeah, I Would go on an annual retreat, so retreats like workshop or some sort of, yeah, learning, but it's really was more for the creative side of my brain, yeah, so, um, even though I guess I am a photographer, I still like, love what photography like, even if it's with my phone, right, yeah, like, and there's certain you know time, I'll follow the light of sunrise, sunset, for like, yes, you can't see it anymore, yeah, and so I mean, I think I Just that's one thing that I always love to do, yeah, other than that, like right now, like I really like, just like to get out.

Speaker 2: 25:13

Yeah yeah, because working home has been an adjustment for me, yes, yes. Yes, and so you know, just trying to support local businesses to see life.

Speaker 1: 25:23

Yes, I can appreciate that because I started working from home in 2008. So, and nobody understood like I would tell people that I was like losing my mind and felt like a rat in a cage, because at the time I was living in a 600 and something square foot condo and it was. I was not married yet, I didn't even have pets. I mean, it was literally just me and I thought I was losing my mind at one point. I mean, I didn't start that way, but and you know, this was the long before everybody was working from home or remotely, and so everybody just thought that it was the dream, right, you know? And they're absolutely pros to working from home, you know.

Speaker 1: 26:00

But for me, I, my last job was hybrid and I really loved that because I definitely got, because I of course got used to days working from home where you can throw a little laundry in or whatever. You know you're working, yes, but you know it definitely, my kitty cats are sitting on my lap while I'm working, it's so nice, but it was also nice to have an office to go to.

Speaker 1: 26:23

Some days I didn't go at all. Some days I went three or four days of the week. It just depended on, you know, meetings or whatever so that was, I think. For me that's kind of my sweet spot, is like finding something that's hybrid. It's hard because a lot of jobs that I because I'm applying now for jobs you know and I've there are some that are that are totally remote and there are some that are totally in person. I don't think any of the ones that I've applied to or interviewed for recently are hybrid.

Speaker 2: 26:51

Well, actually one is, one is so we'll see maybe that'll be the one we'll see, but I just like, I think hybrid is. There's some resistance with hybrid right now because it does take, and that same thing is like shifting your mindset and shift how you want to approach this, yes, and how you your systems of accountability, yeah, firm have to change slightly. Yes, yeah, so that there is a you can trust your employee and they can feel trusted. Yes, but like it's like goes both ways, which I think it's easier when you're all one or all the other, yeah, but the hybrid is, I think, looks like hard work, because it is a little bit of hard work. Yeah, roll your sleeves up, yeah, but I think the firms that are seeing success are, you know, finding ways to make that work for them.

Speaker 1: 27:40

Yeah, yeah. I love it because then I still get to have some of that in person, like not losing my mind, but then I still have the nice like work from home time with the kitty cat on the lap you know that kind of thing so Well and I like the DC metro area, so that saves, in a given day, two to three hours of time today.

Speaker 2: 27:56

So, yes, I personally don't like love working all remote, so that's like I find myself at a coffee shop now I get by people.

Speaker 1: 28:06

Yes, do that kind of stuff. You're thinking like you're crazy. Okay, we only have a couple minutes left. Tell me what is the best thing about being over 40.

Speaker 2: 28:16

The best thing over 40 for me was I kind of get a little bit more grounded in your opinions. Yeah, yeah that there's ways to disagree and just kind of move. You can still be friends. I don't have to agree on things where I think you know, when you're younger in your life, you think you need to align with all the things and, yes, I think you can align in a heart space and not have to align anywhere else.

Speaker 1: 28:46

Yeah, absolutely, yes, yes, agree to disagree is okay. I totally, I love that. Okay, well, tell us all the places to find you, and I will, of course, put all these in the show notes as well, but you know all the places we want to send people to find out about you, about you and your week group coming up, your one on one, all the things.

Speaker 2: 29:08

Yeah, right now, the best place for the one on one and the group program would be on LinkedIn. Yeah, I think on LinkedIn, and then Instagram is just Jen Harkel Road and, as my like, my website is kind of trying to get it all combined into one. Yeah, so, but right now those are the two best Okay you're the first person to say LinkedIn, so I love that.

Speaker 1: 29:36

Oh yeah, I love it.

Speaker 2: 29:38

And my, my network was on LinkedIn because, yeah, mostly career. You know I was on Instagram for these other businesses but I developed a really strong network and they showed up big when I was like launched my photography full time in March and February. Yeah, and it's where a lot of my professional relationships are so that makes perfect sense. Yeah, so it's been fun. Yeah, it's just like to bring in a different side of me to you know, I absolutely love it Well, jen, thank you so much for joining everyone.

Speaker 1: 30:11

Go check out Jen. She's doing some awesome things. And if you're a female woman entrepreneur I mean not entrepreneur, yes, that too, but engineer is what I meant to say, the other e word definitely go check her out. I think that's amazing that you have that niche. Obviously that's your experience, so you know, go check her out. Get all the great info Thanks to that C sweet being amazing leader, all the things and. Jen, you have a great rest of your day you too. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2: 30:39

Thanks, alright, bye.